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Has anyone experience to report about a successful substitution of the 12-line Chinese map in place of the Thai nuad ten sumana map normally used?
How did it go for you?
How did it go for you?
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 12:40 PMMaybe that is not really an answer to your question. As a Shiatsu practor I was used to work with the Chinese map mainly. More precisely: with the Japanese one of Masunaga which is different in details. What I did in daily work is to mix Nuad and Shiatsu techniques. I have started not to care about line systems that much. You can find an article I wrote for the current "Shiatsu Journal" about the Meridian problematic at members.chello.at/oskarpete...rnal58.pdf - unfortunately it is German :-( Maybe you are interested in the point of view from Tetsuro Saito at www.shinso-shiatsu.com/index....ent/C76 who explains that and why meridians shift their positions. (Excuse my English. It is not my mother tongue.) -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 10:33 AMWas interessant ist von diesen artiklen ist wie die linien mochten platz wechseln, ein fur den ander..
Ich kenne nicht den bedeutung von den landbild in Saito artikel (?), nie genau was fur philosofie geht damit.
Ich glaube in jedes fall, den masseur darf total auswahlen die richtungen von alle linienwegs.
Es tut mir leid meine furchtbares schriebungs ins ihre schone schprache. -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 12:00 PMI'm trained in the Masunaga style, Tui Na, Thai, and Medical Qigong.
What I find is that, having learned to feel the energy flow of the meridians, there are definitely more there than just the standard 12.... but, what I've experienced in my practice is that you (the practitioner) will tend to feel what you are resonating with. Masunaga's meridian "extensions" largely resonate on an emotional vibratory level, while many of the standard 12 lines of TCM are somewhat more straightforward on the physical plane - the all have tsubo/xue/marma on them that can resonate through all levels of a being. These vortices or acupoints exist on the skin, deep in the body, and far into the external Qi field. so, if you are resonating with the external qi field - you'll pick up lot's of information there... if you work with it for a long time, you could develop a whole system based on your findings. if you love working with needles, you'll probably find the points that respond best to needles and could develop whole systems of thought in this direction by passing on that angle to your descendents - as has been done in china, japan, korea, india, and tibet. If you like massage and you use anmo techniques, a certain knowledge of the body will arise - shiatsu pressure will call forth something different, and thai massage something even different! There is infinite knowledge to be found.
The extra points in Chinese medicine often correspond to these "other" meridian systems like masunaga's and the Sen lines in illuminating ways.
So, yes, i think there's a crossover possible. Being trained in Chinese med first, if I do Thai techniques, it's usuallly informed by my awareness of the classical 12 TCM channels - and it works out pretty good! -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 6:45 PMI'm definitely having my antennae tuned to that TCM wavelength since my Chinese visit of last year.
I see where Asokananda was sourcing some of his material.
Some meridiens are not really a sensible straight-line Nuad-like flow, but meander in a sort of veering zig-zag in order to hit certain expected points. Look at the gallbladder meridien. It's as if they are charting to a cultural expectation rather than to anatomical realities. But so much of TCM map makes good sense that we overlook the counter-intuitive inconsistencies. -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 9:45 AMYes, the GB meridian is an interesting case, because it doesn't show up so readily under the fingers like other channels do - while you can easily find a straight line running right down the sides of the body and the legs the traditional zigzag can be hard to trace intuitively.
I've been taught, and have come to understand that the zigging and zagging of the Gall Bladder Channel is a graphic representation of it's nature - facilitating the turning and twisting flexibility of the body. I can see and feel how all the points associated with this channel definitely share a similar energy, and from a point-worker's (acupuncturist, acupressurist, qi needle, etc.) perspective, it makes perfect sense. But for bodywork, we sort of need channels that we can feel and follow with some sense of continuity. That's why I believe Masunaga Sensei chose to simply work straight down the side of the body for the GB channel, and look at some of the other points as existing on different meridian flows.
yes, overlooking the counter-intuitive has been a practice for me in studying TCM. Coming from Chakras and Nadis that seemed to make a lot of sense, the 12 and 8 major channels of Chinese Med were slightly disconcerting. What I've realized though, is that eventually the counter-intuitive bits come to make sense when one understands all the aspects. For many of us, there is so much foundational information missing from the chinese medicine system that it's hard to understand the poetry. But when we start to gain access into the greater philosophy and science of the medicine, the poetry becomes clearer and reveals itself as a unique way of describing the subtle energetic realm. When I find new info in TCM that doesn't fit my filters, i have learned to suspend my disbelief until i come into a deeper relationship - this nearly always results in insight arising! -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 10:24 AMInteresting thread-I went to India to follow through the Sen lines, but aside from Sumana, Itta and Pinghala found the system different- the marma points from a protective and preventative military standpoint too. Yes, Thai has absorbed a lot from the Chinese system. Do you think the proliferation of text and treatise in Chinese medicine limits the intuitive application? Thai has so little direct source documentation really. -
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Re: Substituting twelve TuiNa/AnMo lines in place of the ten Nuad Shen Sumana ?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:49 PMNuad is an evolution rooted in Ayurveda, through the lineage of Jivaka Kumar Baccha.... so different , yes, and related.
As Asokananda says, the lines are an approximation, not verifiable by empirical scientific method. The expeienced practicioner, be it Nuad, ShiaTsu, TCM.... has learned to sense, then improvise flexible solutions on the ground, being faced with incalculable variation when it comes to human types. One may always default to the map when feeling and instinct fail to answer.
Me, I believe the existence of the lines is scientifically verifiable,
only science has not yet developed the delicate sensing devices for reading the type of electro-biochemical energies described in energy bodywork. The Shen Sumana are energy channels through which different systems talk to each other. The circulatory, nervous, lymphatic, endocrine, respiratory systems all are in constant communication to maintain balance --- through the shen sumana. Something like the computer module in an automobile constantly sensing and adjusting various functions through circuitry for the sake of optimum energy economy and effective performance.
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